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Fallout from Rangers
#41
(05-24-2012, 11:07 AM)Savage Henry Wrote: EBTs amounted to undeclared salary payments. They are very much illegal under SPL, SFA, and UEFA rules. Rangers should be completely screwed - as should Celtic as clearly they were doing the same thing. They won't. They'll get away scot-free and it makes a sham of the SPL.

Really? Got any evidence for that? I seriously doubt you do as Celtic never used EBTs. Fergus McCann left Celtic in 1999 with a new 60,000 seat stadium and money in the bank. Rangers ex-owner Murray has a massive ego and couldn't take being second best, so he used these EBTs simply to hang-on to Celtics coattails. IMO he (Murray) has ruined Scottish football for a generation.

I appreciate fans of other clubs in Scotland like to use this "they're both as bad as each other" thing about Celtic and Rangers but to me and most Celtic fans it's a lazy and offensive cliche.
 
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#42
Celtic didn't declare an EBT to the SFA (regarding Juninho I think?). They eventually paid the tax on it.

Still "cheating" mind you.


Edit:

BTW, Celtic are as bad as Rangers. Case closed. No need for further discussion.
 
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#43
(05-25-2012, 07:37 PM)junglejamesie Wrote:
(05-24-2012, 11:07 AM)Savage Henry Wrote: EBTs amounted to undeclared salary payments. They are very much illegal under SPL, SFA, and UEFA rules. Rangers should be completely screwed - as should Celtic as clearly they were doing the same thing. They won't. They'll get away scot-free and it makes a sham of the SPL.

Really? Got any evidence for that? I seriously doubt you do as Celtic never used EBTs. Fergus McCann left Celtic in 1999 with a new 60,000 seat stadium and money in the bank. Rangers ex-owner Murray has a massive ego and couldn't take being second best, so he used these EBTs simply to hang-on to Celtics coattails. IMO he (Murray) has ruined Scottish football for a generation.

I appreciate fans of other clubs in Scotland like to use this "they're both as bad as each other" thing about Celtic and Rangers but to me and most Celtic fans it's a lazy and offensive cliche.

Celtic did use an EBT for Juninho way back but there was no evidence that it was being used for wages and after there annual reports, there tax advisors told them that there was significant ambiguity in the scheme and correctly stopped it. You cannot compare like for like
 
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#44
(05-25-2012, 08:04 PM)StrathyStaggie Wrote: Celtic didn't declare an EBT to the SFA (regarding Juninho I think?). They eventually paid the tax on it.

Still "cheating" mind you.

Celtic paid the tax on the Juninho EBT, correct - so how is that cheating? Did you see the amount of players Rangers paid through EBTs without paying tax on them? What was it, 53 players and savings totalling around £44.7m? Yeah, that's the same as Juninho...

And, tonight on the news we had that moron Gordon Smith saying "Rangers have been punished enough". Sure Gordon, sure.
 
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#45
Had heard that one about Juninho as well. Let's be honest, he wasn't exactly an integral part of the Celtic side for a number of seasons the way the likes of Stefan Klos, Arthur Numan, Barry Ferguson, Miladin Prso, Fernando Ricksen etc were at Rangers

As already stated, EBTs can be legal, but the way Rangers administered theirs rendered it illegal, and also in breach of SFA and UEFA registration rules.

It's cheating, pure and simple. Some of the cases are so striking, you have to wonder why it took so long for the authorities to investigate. For instance, the case of Jean-Alain Boumsong, who received £630 000 from his in half a season at Ibrox before his in-no-way-at-all-suspicious transfer to Graeme Souness' Newcastle for £8 million- that works out at roughly £25 000 per week. Rather than a top-up to his normal, tax and NI deductible salary, this looks like it WAS his salary!

Kevin Muscat is another one- £1 million for 1 season's card-happy work

The talk of going to the Court of Session to try and get their transfer ban overturned is ludicrously fanciful- if they don't come to an agreement with creditors within the next few weeks, then Rangers FC won't be signing anyone, because there won't be a Rangers FC
"The heart of the club is the fan. The board and the chairman are custodians. The staff are transient. But the fan is there forever"

Roy Macgregor, April 2013
 
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#46
(05-25-2012, 08:23 PM)VanderDalgarno Wrote: The talk of going to the Court of Session to try and get their transfer ban overturned is ludicrously fanciful- if they don't come to an agreement with creditors within the next few weeks, then Rangers FC won't be signing anyone, because there won't be a Rangers FC

Also, FIFA take an exceptionally dim view of this sort of thing.

"It is prohibited by Fifa for a club to take its association to the civil courts. Fifa rules dictate that the national association must expel any club which takes this action."

So, unless the SFA take action against them, the rest of the Scottish clubs will be banned from European club competitions and the national side will be kicked out of the World Cup qualifiers.

Your move, SFA...
 
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#47
(05-25-2012, 07:04 PM)Billy7Ferries Wrote: I'm a wee bit behind the news today, but just became aware Rangers are taking the SFA transfer ban decision to the Court of Session.

I cannot understand why they would do this, UEFA will hammer them now.

The Administrators have to act in the best interests of Rangers so you would expect them to follow every legal avenue available. I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up at the European Court, UEFA appeal court and the Court of Arbitration in Sport. Plus any others they can think of along the way.

(05-25-2012, 07:37 PM)junglejamesie Wrote:
(05-24-2012, 11:07 AM)Savage Henry Wrote: EBTs amounted to undeclared salary payments. They are very much illegal under SPL, SFA, and UEFA rules. Rangers should be completely screwed - as should Celtic as clearly they were doing the same thing. They won't. They'll get away scot-free and it makes a sham of the SPL.

Really? Got any evidence for that? I seriously doubt you do as Celtic never used EBTs. Fergus McCann left Celtic in 1999 with a new 60,000 seat stadium and money in the bank. Rangers ex-owner Murray has a massive ego and couldn't take being second best, so he used these EBTs simply to hang-on to Celtics coattails. IMO he (Murray) has ruined Scottish football for a generation.

I appreciate fans of other clubs in Scotland like to use this "they're both as bad as each other" thing about Celtic and Rangers but to me and most Celtic fans it's a lazy and offensive cliche.

Yes apparently Celtic inherited an EBT for Juninho. They paid out around £700k. They subsequently decided it was a bit dodgy so contact HMRC and paid all of the tax due. Crucially they never advised the SFA so will probably also be sanctioned.
 
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#48
cut them loose and let them drift away. absolutely bored rigid about them and how the rest of us cant live without them.
 
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#49
(05-25-2012, 07:37 PM)junglejamesie Wrote:
(05-24-2012, 11:07 AM)Savage Henry Wrote: EBTs amounted to undeclared salary payments. They are very much illegal under SPL, SFA, and UEFA rules. Rangers should be completely screwed - as should Celtic as clearly they were doing the same thing. They won't. They'll get away scot-free and it makes a sham of the SPL.

Really? Got any evidence for that? I seriously doubt you do as Celtic never used EBTs. Fergus McCann left Celtic in 1999 with a new 60,000 seat stadium and money in the bank. Rangers ex-owner Murray has a massive ego and couldn't take being second best, so he used these EBTs simply to hang-on to Celtics coattails. IMO he (Murray) has ruined Scottish football for a generation.

I appreciate fans of other clubs in Scotland like to use this "they're both as bad as each other" thing about Celtic and Rangers but to me and most Celtic fans it's a lazy and offensive cliche.

That's because it doesn't suit your self-aggrandising agenda. Get used to it - Celtic and Rangers are two sides of the same coin, and once the Blue Bigots are gone, you'll be next against the wall. Which is why your corrupt establishment club are going to vote yes to a newco, in spite of what all the right on Celtic fans claim to want. Celtic as an institution are every bit as vile and offensive and corrupt as Rangers are. That it's proving to be a tax case that brings down Rangers is analagous to sending Al Capone to jail for years on tax evasion. It gets the job done, but frankly we all know what's really going on.

Rangers (and Celtic) have ruined Scottish football for far more than just a generation. They are a permanent blight on the football landscape, and frankly the sooner they both disappear - to oblivion, the third division or Portugal, take your pick - the better.

The point is, EBTs were not being declared. Celtic may have paid tax on theirs, but they still didn't declare it to the SFA.
 
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#50
(05-25-2012, 08:31 PM)junglejamesie Wrote:
(05-25-2012, 08:23 PM)VanderDalgarno Wrote: The talk of going to the Court of Session to try and get their transfer ban overturned is ludicrously fanciful- if they don't come to an agreement with creditors within the next few weeks, then Rangers FC won't be signing anyone, because there won't be a Rangers FC

Also, FIFA take an exceptionally dim view of this sort of thing.

"It is prohibited by Fifa for a club to take its association to the civil courts. Fifa rules dictate that the national association must expel any club which takes this action."

So, unless the SFA take action against them, the rest of the Scottish clubs will be banned from European club competitions and the national side will be kicked out of the World Cup qualifiers.

Your move, SFA...

If all Scottish clubs banned from Europe and national side kicked out of the World Cup qualifiers it is thanks to the incompetance of the SFA in sorting out the Rangers problem. The SFA just think they can make the rules up as they go along causing more problems.
 
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#51
[/quote]

If all Scottish clubs banned from Europe and national side kicked out of the World Cup qualifiers it is thanks to the incompetance of the SFA in sorting out the Rangers problem. The SFA just think they can make the rules up as they go along causing more problems.
[/quote]

Actually, it is actually due to the incompetence of Rangers and Duff & Phelps, as Rangers shoudl have taken their case to the Curt of Arbitration for Sport not the UK Supreme Court as it was a matter for Fifa etc to rule on not the law courts. But then again, could this have been the ploy of Rangers and their administrators in the 1st place cos should the SFA take the ultimate sanction and throw Rangers out entirely then they will cry foul and claim that they have been victimised (what a joke!!!! - they brought the scottish game into disrepute and now feel like they should get off scot free which is wrong.).
 
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#52
green hasn't got the money or the backing.no one in this current climate is going to buy a season ticket when there might not be a club there next month.in the words of cpl Fraser there Doomed
 
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#53
Rangers, and Celtic, didnt care a jot about Scottish Football when they talked about leaving to go to the EPL or to start up in some sort of Atlantic League, so for them to get on their high horse now and claim that Scottish Football needs them stinks of hypocrisy and double standards. If they had cared a jot about the scottish game they would not have wanted to try to move so badly
 
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#54
the spl and most of its members only care about the money.the tax dodgers are not the only team that is skint which proves this league is not making money but they all budget for the visit of the OF and dont give a monkeys about their own fans.when they do come up here to play hundreds of their support will be comming from Inverness and Ross shire even some of the people who turned up for the day to watch County at Hampden.
 
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#55
I think Celtic did an EBT for the wee brazillian they got from Middlesbrough so I think Celtic fans should be careful what they wish for !!
Highlander29
 
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#56
(06-05-2012, 10:02 AM)Son of Earl. Wrote: I think Celtic did an EBT for the wee brazillian they got from Middlesbrough so I think Celtic fans should be careful what they wish for !!

Juninho Paulista. He arrived with an EBT and Celtic payed any tax that was
due on it at his time at the club. A million miles away from what Rangers
have been up to.

EBTs themselves were not illegal. The way Rangers FC were using them was.
 
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#57
The way Rangers were using them was not illegal at the time. It is illegal now if HMRC can prove with all probability that the EBT's were getting used as a form of salary payment.

Celtic did not declare the EBT and double payment to the SFA straight away. They did it retrospectively. It certainly wasn't in the same magnitude as Rangers cheating, but once the SPL decide on the double contract scenario, it wouldn't surprise me to see Celtic forfeit any game that he was involved in likewise Rangers forfeiting every game they used a double contract player.

Much like in the Scottish Cup if you field an illegible player you now forfeit that game.
YOINK
 
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#58
(06-05-2012, 07:34 PM)Carlos Wrote: The way Rangers were using them was not illegal at the time. It is illegal now if HMRC can prove with all probability that the EBT's were getting used as a form of salary payment.

You seem to be confused about this. HMRC are pursing Rangers for non-payment
of PAYE and NI contributions through the use of EBTs. Rangers are not disputing
this - they are disputing the amount of interest and fines added to the total by HMRC.

The SPL are investigating whether or not the EBTs were used as a double contract,
i.e. a way of paying players more than they could afford to AND not informing the
footballing authorities that they were doing this. And, it's looks like Rangers are as
guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo on this one...
 
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#59
Yes and if HMRC can prove in all probability the EBT was used as part of a salary, they can then bill Rangers for all NI and Income tax that would have been deducted from that salaries. The Big Tax Case is HMRC trying to prove that these were salary payments, and if so they want to receive the tax and NI contributions due and to add penalties and interest. Rangers are disputing everything. If Rangers can prove that these were not salary payments, they will only be due the money from the small tax case. The small tax case Rangers are not disputing the money owed, they are disputing only the penalties and interest due. I think you're getting confused between the two cases.

If the SFA find evidence that they were double contracts issued, all parties that have issued them will be punished. By all accounts there is already enough evidence to show Christain Nerlinger was in receipt of a double contract. In all honesty I can't see Rangers winning the Big Tax Case, and I can see the SFA excessively punishing them for double contracts.

But if they do so, they will have to punish all sides that have issued double contracts. That includes Celtic for Juninho. However as Celtic did not win the league that year losing points for every league game that year isn't going to matter, as Rangers will lose every game that year. You may get your Scottish Cup win stripped that season however.

Rangers could be stripped of everything they have won since the first EBT was used in 1999.
YOINK
 
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#60
Tbh, it's all getting very boring. Just kill them off and be done with it.

Can't help thinking though that somehow they will get off with it. Start up as Rangers United, or whatever, in the SPL and Doncaster will be delighted cos Sky have decided to renew.

What we need is for Scottish football to be reborn. I obviously don't have the answers but something needs to be done. If the newco is allowed back in with minimal punishment the game is up.
 
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