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Fallout from Rangers
#21
(05-24-2012, 12:31 AM)Carlos Wrote: Ross County 2 Rangers 3 Scottish Cup February 2001
Klos*, Wilson, Ricksen*, Konterman, Malcolm, Reyna, Ferguson*, McCann*, Tugay, Miller, Flo*

Christiansen, Moore*, Johnston

From the Scottish Cup game we can see that Rangers paid six of their squad with EBTs with evidence that this was for payment of services.


Ross County 1 Rangers 2 League Cup November 2001

Klos* Amoruso* Wilson Ross Ball* de Boer* Ferguson* Reyna Arveladze Lovenkrands* Caniggia

Christiansen Konterman Latapy Mols* Flo*

Of the squad of 16 that denied us as place in the League Cup Semi final eight of the squad were paid using EBT's with evidence that these had side letters explaining that these were for payment.

All payments to players must be registered with the SFA, any other payments to players that is not stated with the recorded contract with the SFA is illegal. Not only have Rangers used the EBT method as a loophole around paying tax they have by all accounts issued double contracts for several players. Not only have they cheated the SPL, but they have cheated every SFL club they have ever played during this time as well. But more importantly they have cheated us.

If we do get a vote, I would hope that our vote goes to support the likes of Queen of the South who were cheated out of a cup victory. After all it is the SFL fans that have come through our gates over our existence in the SFL that have kept us going rather than the three visits from the Old Firm we have had. Caley take more fans anyway.

As for the money to George Adams there is no evidence to say that this was as a salary payment.

Brilliant Carlos, My favourite post ever.
Highlander29
 
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#22
If we consider that a large proportion of Rangers fans (and celtic) in the north pay to watch Ross County regularly, then I wouldn't be keen on winding them up. Lets keep them on side and welcome the financial and vocal support they give us.

On the other hand, of we think we can maintain decent crowds without them, then let them have it both barrels!
 
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#23
(05-24-2012, 06:03 PM)cdam Wrote: Whilst I have sympathy for the average rangers fan, they don't deserve this (no, really, they don't) the club have broken just about every rule going (we will probably find that somewhere along the line they even had a girl playing (insert punch-line here).

Sympathy for the average Rangers fan? No chance. It was pressure from the thousands of average Rangers fans, with their expectations of, and entitlement to, trophies every year, that drove the Ibrox board to spend more than they could afford, year in year out.
 
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#24
David Murray was chasing the dream like Leeds United all that talk of fivers and tenners have come back and bit him on the [censored].
They should be horsed down to the third but Scotish football authorities or spl have,nt got the balls thats why they are all stalling sitting back and waiting for something to happen.
 
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#25
(05-24-2012, 05:43 PM)StuartTaylor Wrote: How would people if feel if for example Rangers get booted into the 3rd Division, and Dundee are allowed into the SPL, as runners-up in the 1st.
24pts behind us, and also a club who cheated a few seasons ago, buying players they couldnt afford, going into administration, and some would say getting off lightly with the 25pt penalty. They may even have more money than us, buy better players, and relegate us next season.

I would far prefer Dunfermline stayed up!

Their situations are different though, as much as I've no time for Dundee. From a Ross County point of view, we would certainly suffer in such a scenario. Dundee have served their punishment for financial mismanagement, Rangers are alleged to have broken rules over and above financial mismanagement though.

We might suffer in the short term in your scenario, but in the long term I believe Scottish football would be better off. Even more so if Rangers faced something more severe.
 
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#26
For those who say Rangers in Div 3 would kill football and sky wouldn't continue shiwing matches, don't forget there is no Sky coverage in Div 1 and also no old firm in Div 1 and is, arguably, a much better league. I'd rather an SFA and SPL with backbone and integrity even if it means a poorer league initially.
 
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#27
(05-24-2012, 07:40 PM)FilthyStaggie Wrote:
(05-24-2012, 05:43 PM)StuartTaylor Wrote: How would people if feel if for example Rangers get booted into the 3rd Division, and Dundee are allowed into the SPL, as runners-up in the 1st.
24pts behind us, and also a club who cheated a few seasons ago, buying players they couldnt afford, going into administration, and some would say getting off lightly with the 25pt penalty. They may even have more money than us, buy better players, and relegate us next season.

I would far prefer Dunfermline stayed up!

Their situations are different though, as much as I've no time for Dundee. From a Ross County point of view, we would certainly suffer in such a scenario. Dundee have served their punishment for financial mismanagement, Rangers are alleged to have broken rules over and above financial mismanagement though.

We might suffer in the short term in your scenario, but in the long term I believe Scottish football would be better off. Even more so if Rangers faced something more severe.

Yeah I know. I've developed such a dislike of Dundee and Falkirk this season! Grrrrr....

 
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#28
Maybe it's a case of better the devil we know!
 
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#29
(05-24-2012, 09:08 AM)The Oracle Wrote:
(05-24-2012, 12:18 AM)Son of Earl. Wrote: They are not a giant I think Scotland would be a better place without them.

[censored], then go watch Scottish Football crumble under a domino affect. Sick of hearing people say the Old Firm should go, Scottish Football would be better? Pysh, no outside interest if they did go.
Proof in the pudding is, Hibs and Hearts can't fill each others ground playing a Derby, supposed 3 and 4th biggest clubs in Scotland? The final is the first I've seen an almost full Hampden when one of the other is not playing the Old Firm and even then they struggle to fill there allocation! End of the day, everybody wants to beat the Old Firm (or should) and EVERY club wants the revenue matches against them bring. I'm a strong believer in not biting the hand that feeds you, like it or not, they have collectively hand fed millions to the SFA and the Scottish League over the years. We'd be like the League of Wales without them!

(05-23-2012, 10:57 PM)Five Minutes from the Ground Wrote: I see that the BBC have released information to tie in with their documentary on Rangers this evening http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-gl...t-18148818 and are alleging that one of the beneficiaries of the Employee Benefits Trust scheme that HMRC are pursuing them for, was George Adams to the tune of £30k, when he was there between 2003 and 2005. No sign of them having seen a side letter relating to George though, which would have been damning.

Doubt if really means anything so far as Ross County is concerned though.

Come on now, Geo got and took money the same as the rest, doesn't matter if it was Bazza's 2.5m, Geo's 30k or Bertie Bombscare Konterman's 300 quid. He took the cash, he's as guilty as the rest IF it is proved to be wrong. For ALL these e-mails they had? they showed us 3? Every time they put forward 'their' evidence? It was.......'we have been told', Not We can prove!!! Big difference and IF the EBT's did go through the books and were in the accounts? whats the prob? If the HMRC though it was as clear cut as the BBC tried to make out? the case would have been done and dusted long time ago! And I don't believe Rangers are the only Scottish club to do this.

(05-24-2012, 12:31 AM)Carlos Wrote: Ross County 2 Rangers 3 Scottish Cup February 2001
Klos*, Wilson, Ricksen*, Konterman, Malcolm, Reyna, Ferguson*, McCann*, Tugay, Miller, Flo*

Christiansen, Moore*, Johnston

From the Scottish Cup game we can see that Rangers paid six of their squad with EBTs with evidence that this was for payment of services.


Ross County 1 Rangers 2 League Cup November 2001

Klos* Amoruso* Wilson Ross Ball* de Boer* Ferguson* Reyna Arveladze Lovenkrands* Caniggia

Christiansen Konterman Latapy Mols* Flo*

Of the squad of 16 that denied us as place in the League Cup Semi final eight of the squad were paid using EBT's with evidence that these had side letters explaining that these were for payment.

All payments to players must be registered with the SFA, any other payments to players that is not stated with the recorded contract with the SFA is illegal. Not only have Rangers used the EBT method as a loophole around paying tax they have by all accounts issued double contracts for several players. Not only have they cheated the SPL, but they have cheated every SFL club they have ever played during this time as well. But more importantly they have cheated us.

If we do get a vote, I would hope that our vote goes to support the likes of Queen of the South who were cheated out of a cup victory. After all it is the SFL fans that have come through our gates over our existence in the SFL that have kept us going rather than the three visits from the Old Firm we have had. Caley take more fans anyway.

As for the money to George Adams there is no evidence to say that this was as a salary payment.

I have to laugh, these EBT's were agreed through some of Rangers' WORST season's!! Seriously? people clutching at Straws.

BTW I would be worried by the fact that there IS no explaining why Geo got the cash, he got the same amount Souness did yet they tried to emply that it was to do with the Tugay transfer??

Non repayable loans? Not illegal and the fact that they were not paid alongside their wages cannot be seen as it seemingly is in terms of people havin two contracts running concurrent, i.e. where one pays out 5,000 each week and the other 'hidden one' pays out a 'top up' of 2,000 each week. I can't see what the fuss is about?
Can I ask that you are on any Jury that I face in the future as there appears to be no level of criminality you are willing to condemn. Poor, misunderstood Rangers? Meanwhile, on planet earth...
 
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#30
I think Rangers should be hammered hard for the utter contempt they have shown for the rules and their fellow teams in Scotland. On the other hand, now that we have managed to reach the SPL I want to see our team against the biggest ( if not the best) teams in the country. My Caley mate at work makes a very good point, they will not miss Rangers as long as we are in the same division as the local derby draws a far better crowd and is more enjoyable as you cannot predict the outcome.[/u]
 
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#31
It is interesting to see the number of folk that were siting on the wall until recently (including myself) that are now saying enough is enough. Lets hope Rangers get what they deserve. All the p!sh about the survival of Scottish football has worn through now I think, if they are allowed to stay in the SPL it will do far more damage in the future and the ultimately the credibility of the game here and now.

I was annoyed at first this had to be going on the year County made it to the SPL. However, if/when Rangers do get hammered at least our budget has still increased, unlike every other club who will see a reduction. Every cloud maybe.

I wish it would go away though. Sick of hearing about it. Hard to get away from it too, 1st on the news, never mind the sport so feck all chance of hearing what any other club is up to... Not good
 
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#32
Having finally watched the BBC One thing from last night about Rangers I am now able to offer my opinions and can honestly say that based on what I saw David Murray is as big a shyster as Craig Whyte, he just didnt go about his dodgy dealings in the same way.

UNtil watching the programme i waas all for giving Rangers the fine and embargo and letting them go on their merry way hopiing we stuffed them and relegated them next year. But now I seriously think that they should be hammered to the fullest extent and if that means either relegating them to division 3 and hitting them with a massive fine and transfer embargo or alternatively liquidate the company then so be it. All other clubs live within their means and as such there should be one rull for all people not one rule for us and a different rule for them, which is what it will look like if Rangers get away scot free with this.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see Rangers Vs Ross County in the SPL but I would only want to see it if it was a level playing field for all clubs.

The Old Firm talk about how the Scottish game would suffer without them, but what people seem to forget is that just a short time ago, both halves of the Old Firm didnt care a jot about the state of the Scottish game when they talked about leaving for the EPL or Atlantic league. So for them to talk about caring about the state of the scottish game without them now stinks of hypocrisy and just shows that all they care about is covering their own backs and ensuring that they dont end up out on their ears.

And before anyone accuses me of being a fan of either half of the Old Firm, dont bother as I hate them both equally.

Yes the SPL may suffer financially for a few years but beyond that I think it would become a more competitive and healthy league
 
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#33
Scottish football was much more exciting in the era of the new firm when Aberdeen & Dundee Utd were challenging the old firm. Even Hearts nearly won the league in 1985. Since them the OF have worked out how to use their financial muscle to the detriment to the rest of us.

Their argument is that unless they're allowed to dominate in Scotland they can't compete in Europe. While I understand the argument I can't say that I particularly enjoy the lack of competition in the SPL.

It seems to me that the current debacle gives the OF the perfect opportunity to P!55 off to England and leave the rest of us to get on with it.
 
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#34
(05-25-2012, 12:41 PM)Max Wrote: It seems to me that the current debacle gives the OF the perfect opportunity to P!55 off to England and leave the rest of us to get on with it.

I'm sorry but that's just complete fantasy and not going to happen. The only reason that thought lingers is because of the way the sections of the media have, and still do, propagate this myth the Old Firm are too big for Scotland and that's an option. Which is part of the reason Rangers are in this mess now. The papers have been happy for years to bum Rangers up into something they're not and never question the finances of it. They'd link them to signing players like Ronaldo (the fat one) in their prime. They'd never even raise the question of how they could afford the likes of Numan, Van Bronckhorst etc. when as we now know well beyond their means.

In the last decade they have proved to be the football equivalent of the credit crunch. for every £5 Celtic spent David Murray borrowed £10. Boom and bust on money which didn't exist. And on top of that, cheated regarding the EBT's.

The media would continue to have us believe we can't get along without them though, as would Neil Doncaster. Do we really want to believe the people who have lived by hanging on to their coat tails for so long though?
 
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#35
(05-25-2012, 01:38 PM)FilthyStaggie Wrote: The media would continue to have us believe we can't get along without them though, as would Neil Doncaster. Do we really want to believe the people who have lived by hanging on to their coat tails for so long though?

Totally Agree! The Media and Doncaster are the ones who could not survive without the old firm. I can't remember the last time I bought a newspaper infact, why pay to read yesterdays news through west coast tinted glasses. The socialist media is dead, longlive the social media.

And Doncaster is another vampire sucking out the blood of Scottish Football, Sporting integrity will never be an important issue, when there are corporate identities wanting to generate as much income as possible.

*i exclude the bbc from this as they had the guts to do some investigative journalism which started this thread, but they get the guy who normally does the investigations on the ganglands, as Traynor and Chico wouldn't dare give up their succulent lamb!
"the beach balls are burst" Derek Adams 19/05/13
 
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#36
(05-24-2012, 09:08 AM)The Oracle Wrote: I have to laugh, these EBT's were agreed through some of Rangers' WORST season's!! Seriously? people clutching at Straws.

BTW I would be worried by the fact that there IS no explaining why Geo got the cash, he got the same amount Souness did yet they tried to emply that it was to do with the Tugay transfer??

Non repayable loans? Not illegal and the fact that they were not paid alongside their wages cannot be seen as it seemingly is in terms of people havin two contracts running concurrent, i.e. where one pays out 5,000 each week and the other 'hidden one' pays out a 'top up' of 2,000 each week. I can't see what the fuss is about?

YOu are correct in saying that EBT's are not illegal and they were not illegal at the time Rangers made these payments. However in 2010 HMRC won a court case that showed that EBT's were setup to avoid paying tax. As such HMRC can reclaim tax that was due to them in this years if they can prove in all probability that these payments were not loans but salary payments.

The EBT's were declared in their annual accounts however at no point have the loans from these accounts been attempted to be paid back. HMRC state that is a form of tax evasion and are going after Rangers.

As a result of not making income tax and NI payments on the 53 players and staff that were paid through EBT's they saved themselves millions per season. Which allowed them to make more signings. Even more damning is that the money Rangers were spending was given to them from Murray International Holdings which had borrowed the money from HBOS.

The fuss about the double contracts is that it is against the rules of the SFA and UEFA. All salary payments must be declared to the governing body. Rangers were paying some of the players X amount which was registered with the SFA and were giving them Y amount extra. This is against SFA rules. There seems to be enough evidence to show that Christian Nerlinger was indeed getting paid X amount which was declared and he was receiving Y amount through the EBT which Rangers have said was salary payment.

Rangers have cheated. Even worse is that they did Falkirk and Queen of the South out of winning Scottish Cups. I'd imagine the tinted specs would be off if it turned out Dundee United players in May 2010 were on double contracts.

As for Rangers moving to England, that is also against FIFA and UEFA rules.
YOINK
 
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#37
We are in the best position of all SPL teams as all we have to do would be to revise down budgets. Their fans are making noises about boycotting away games anyway which shows their stupidity as they still require chairmen to vote next week! I personally think with lower police/stewarding costs and the fact that Murdoch and Salmond are best mates just now meaning that a SKY deal will still be done, we will be alright.
I also would be quite happy not to have my nine year old asking, "Dad, whats a fenian?", "Dad, why do they want to do that to the pope?", "Dad, why are they singing about a war 320 years ago?" and probably, "Dad, who is Bobby Sands? and can we stop at Donatis on the way home for a chicken supper!"
 
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#38
(05-25-2012, 06:01 PM)Carlos Wrote: YOu are correct in saying that EBT's are not illegal and they were not illegal at the time Rangers made these payments. However in 2010 HMRC won a court case that showed that EBT's were setup to avoid paying tax. As such HMRC can reclaim tax that was due to them in this years if they can prove in all probability that these payments were not loans but salary payments.

The EBT's were declared in their annual accounts however at no point have the loans from these accounts been attempted to be paid back. HMRC state that is a form of tax evasion and are going after Rangers.

As a result of not making income tax and NI payments on the 53 players and staff that were paid through EBT's they saved themselves millions per season. Which allowed them to make more signings. Even more damning is that the money Rangers were spending was given to them from Murray International Holdings which had borrowed the money from HBOS.

The fuss about the double contracts is that it is against the rules of the SFA and UEFA. All salary payments must be declared to the governing body. Rangers were paying some of the players X amount which was registered with the SFA and were giving them Y amount extra. This is against SFA rules. There seems to be enough evidence to show that Christian Nerlinger was indeed getting paid X amount which was declared and he was receiving Y amount through the EBT which Rangers have said was salary payment.

Rangers have cheated. Even worse is that they did Falkirk and Queen of the South out of winning Scottish Cups. I'd imagine the tinted specs would be off if it turned out Dundee United players in May 2010 were on double contracts.

As for Rangers moving to England, that is also against FIFA and UEFA rules.

That is a fantastic post.

Clear and precise, very simply explaining the facts regarding the Rangers situation.

 
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#39
(05-25-2012, 06:15 PM)Billy7Ferries Wrote:
(05-25-2012, 06:01 PM)Carlos Wrote: YOu are correct in saying that EBT's are not illegal and they were not illegal at the time Rangers made these payments. However in 2010 HMRC won a court case that showed that EBT's were setup to avoid paying tax. As such HMRC can reclaim tax that was due to them in this years if they can prove in all probability that these payments were not loans but salary payments.

The EBT's were declared in their annual accounts however at no point have the loans from these accounts been attempted to be paid back. HMRC state that is a form of tax evasion and are going after Rangers.

As a result of not making income tax and NI payments on the 53 players and staff that were paid through EBT's they saved themselves millions per season. Which allowed them to make more signings. Even more damning is that the money Rangers were spending was given to them from Murray International Holdings which had borrowed the money from HBOS.

The fuss about the double contracts is that it is against the rules of the SFA and UEFA. All salary payments must be declared to the governing body. Rangers were paying some of the players X amount which was registered with the SFA and were giving them Y amount extra. This is against SFA rules. There seems to be enough evidence to show that Christian Nerlinger was indeed getting paid X amount which was declared and he was receiving Y amount through the EBT which Rangers have said was salary payment.

Rangers have cheated. Even worse is that they did Falkirk and Queen of the South out of winning Scottish Cups. I'd imagine the tinted specs would be off if it turned out Dundee United players in May 2010 were on double contracts.

As for Rangers moving to England, that is also against FIFA and UEFA rules.

That is a fantastic post.

Clear and precise, very simply explaining the facts regarding the Rangers situation.


Couldn't agree more .... an excellent post Carlos.
 
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#40
I'm a wee bit behind the news today, but just became aware Rangers are taking the SFA transfer ban decision to the Court of Session.

I cannot understand why they would do this, UEFA will hammer them now.
 
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