[Five Minutes from the Ground]

I see that the BBC have released information to tie in with their documentary on Rangers this evening http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-gl...t-18148818 and are alleging that one of the beneficiaries of the Employee Benefits Trust scheme that HMRC are pursuing them for, was George Adams to the tune of £30k, when he was there between 2003 and 2005. No sign of them having seen a side letter relating to George though, which would have been damning.

Doubt if really means anything so far as Ross County is concerned though.

[Billy7Ferries]

I'm getting just a bit tired of the whole shambles that is Rangers Football Club.

An utter embarrassment to Scotland.

On one hand you'd like to see them stutter on in some shape or form into next season, as you feel County deserve the chance to play them - you reach the SPL, and out with the Caley game, the majority of us would look to the games against Rangers and Celtic as the biggest ones for obvious reasons.

But Rangers are no longer that Scottish giant in football terms, their recent history is now clouded in allegations of financial cheating and corruption, it's looking increasingly possible, there may not be any Rangers in any form next season.

I'll wildly speculate that HMRC will now move to remove Duff and Phelps, liquidate Rangers and sell off the carcass.

[County73]

Things are so bad now I can see no way Rangers can be kept in the SPL and for the league to have any semblance of respect. Even though clubs will take a financial pounding for some time, in my opinion Rangers have to be demoted to Div 3 and our game also needs a complete overhaul, top to bottom. The whole saga is a disgrace.

[Blinkers]

Give them their medicine, forget previous dealings with other clubs, they pale into insignificance compared the financial fiasco that is Rangers. Div3 and they should be grateful to get that!

[Son of Earl.]

They are not a giant I think Scotland would be a better place without them.

[Carlos]

Ross County 2 Rangers 3 Scottish Cup February 2001
Klos*, Wilson, Ricksen*, Konterman, Malcolm, Reyna, Ferguson*, McCann*, Tugay, Miller, Flo*

Christiansen, Moore*, Johnston

From the Scottish Cup game we can see that Rangers paid six of their squad with EBTs with evidence that this was for payment of services.


Ross County 1 Rangers 2 League Cup November 2001

Klos* Amoruso* Wilson Ross Ball* de Boer* Ferguson* Reyna Arveladze Lovenkrands* Caniggia

Christiansen Konterman Latapy Mols* Flo*

Of the squad of 16 that denied us as place in the League Cup Semi final eight of the squad were paid using EBT's with evidence that these had side letters explaining that these were for payment.

All payments to players must be registered with the SFA, any other payments to players that is not stated with the recorded contract with the SFA is illegal. Not only have Rangers used the EBT method as a loophole around paying tax they have by all accounts issued double contracts for several players. Not only have they cheated the SPL, but they have cheated every SFL club they have ever played during this time as well. But more importantly they have cheated us.

If we do get a vote, I would hope that our vote goes to support the likes of Queen of the South who were cheated out of a cup victory. After all it is the SFL fans that have come through our gates over our existence in the SFL that have kept us going rather than the three visits from the Old Firm we have had. Caley take more fans anyway.

As for the money to George Adams there is no evidence to say that this was as a salary payment.

[StattoStaggie]

I don't think George Adams, or the other individuals involved, are responsible. They would assume their employers are paying them appropriately. Exceptions would be senior management, eg David Murray!

[The Oracle]

They are not a giant I think Scotland would be a better place without them.

[censored], then go watch Scottish Football crumble under a domino affect. Sick of hearing people say the Old Firm should go, Scottish Football would be better? Pysh, no outside interest if they did go.
Proof in the pudding is, Hibs and Hearts can't fill each others ground playing a Derby, supposed 3 and 4th biggest clubs in Scotland? The final is the first I've seen an almost full Hampden when one of the other is not playing the Old Firm and even then they struggle to fill there allocation! End of the day, everybody wants to beat the Old Firm (or should) and EVERY club wants the revenue matches against them bring. I'm a strong believer in not biting the hand that feeds you, like it or not, they have collectively hand fed millions to the SFA and the Scottish League over the years. We'd be like the League of Wales without them!

---

I see that the BBC have released information to tie in with their documentary on Rangers this evening http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-gl...t-18148818 and are alleging that one of the beneficiaries of the Employee Benefits Trust scheme that HMRC are pursuing them for, was George Adams to the tune of £30k, when he was there between 2003 and 2005. No sign of them having seen a side letter relating to George though, which would have been damning.

Doubt if really means anything so far as Ross County is concerned though.

Come on now, Geo got and took money the same as the rest, doesn't matter if it was Bazza's 2.5m, Geo's 30k or Bertie Bombscare Konterman's 300 quid. He took the cash, he's as guilty as the rest IF it is proved to be wrong. For ALL these e-mails they had? they showed us 3? Every time they put forward 'their' evidence? It was.......'we have been told', Not We can prove!!! Big difference and IF the EBT's did go through the books and were in the accounts? whats the prob? If the HMRC though it was as clear cut as the BBC tried to make out? the case would have been done and dusted long time ago! And I don't believe Rangers are the only Scottish club to do this.

---

Ross County 2 Rangers 3 Scottish Cup February 2001
Klos*, Wilson, Ricksen*, Konterman, Malcolm, Reyna, Ferguson*, McCann*, Tugay, Miller, Flo*

Christiansen, Moore*, Johnston

From the Scottish Cup game we can see that Rangers paid six of their squad with EBTs with evidence that this was for payment of services.


Ross County 1 Rangers 2 League Cup November 2001

Klos* Amoruso* Wilson Ross Ball* de Boer* Ferguson* Reyna Arveladze Lovenkrands* Caniggia

Christiansen Konterman Latapy Mols* Flo*

Of the squad of 16 that denied us as place in the League Cup Semi final eight of the squad were paid using EBT's with evidence that these had side letters explaining that these were for payment.

All payments to players must be registered with the SFA, any other payments to players that is not stated with the recorded contract with the SFA is illegal. Not only have Rangers used the EBT method as a loophole around paying tax they have by all accounts issued double contracts for several players. Not only have they cheated the SPL, but they have cheated every SFL club they have ever played during this time as well. But more importantly they have cheated us.

If we do get a vote, I would hope that our vote goes to support the likes of Queen of the South who were cheated out of a cup victory. After all it is the SFL fans that have come through our gates over our existence in the SFL that have kept us going rather than the three visits from the Old Firm we have had. Caley take more fans anyway.

As for the money to George Adams there is no evidence to say that this was as a salary payment.

I have to laugh, these EBT's were agreed through some of Rangers' WORST season's!! Seriously? people clutching at Straws.

BTW I would be worried by the fact that there IS no explaining why Geo got the cash, he got the same amount Souness did yet they tried to emply that it was to do with the Tugay transfer??

Non repayable loans? Not illegal and the fact that they were not paid alongside their wages cannot be seen as it seemingly is in terms of people havin two contracts running concurrent, i.e. where one pays out 5,000 each week and the other 'hidden one' pays out a 'top up' of 2,000 each week. I can't see what the fuss is about?

[wemyss77]

Emm all the talk of Scottish football would not survive without Rangers bla bla. Every town in Scotland has probably more old firm fans than any other club. Folk might actually start supporting their local clubs rather than what actually happens right now. The whole Rangers thing is a joke, as someone said before they should be happy with the 3rd div, as teams like this don't deserve the right to dictate what they can do, regardless of the number of "fans" they have.

[sirjames]

If the SPL was a fair competition, then places like Tynecastle, Easter Road and Pittodrie would be full on a regular basis. It is no coincidence that just about every memorable Scottish Cup final features neither of the bigot brothers. Scottish football would be infinitely better off without the Old Firm.

[Savage Henry]

EBTs amounted to undeclared salary payments. They are very much illegal under SPL, SFA, and UEFA rules. Rangers should be completely screwed - as should Celtic as clearly they were doing the same thing. They won't. They'll get away scot-free and it makes a sham of the SPL.

[dingwall.cof]

Quite amuzing considering we were thrown out of the youth SPL a couple of years back because a form was not filled in, but then was filled in, but their was no leniency. I hope these little things are remembered at the time of the vote.

[Billy7Ferries]

I can see someone on this thread is a real bluenose and it's not the navy blue of County!

[Five Minutes from the Ground]

I can see someone on this thread is a real bluenose and it's not the navy blue of County!

It's traditional for some County fans to have a second team. They support a leading SPL club, and also a wee club, in the lower reaches of the SFL.

[StattoStaggie]

EBTs are neither illegal, or in Rangers case undeclared. Whereas administering them incorrectly ranges from a mistake to a criminal offence. Rangers problem with declaration is the allegation of undisclosed second contracts which is against SFA rules.
Having been at the Cup Final on Saturday I agree with the "real bluenose" on here that Scottish football needs Rangers ( or more correctly the Old Firm) if we wish to maintain a footballing status above our weight, what that doesn't mean is that Rangers go unpunished. It's for the authorities to investigate, decide and for Rangers to take on the chin. They'll be back in the SPL in five years to try and stop Celtic's push for six in a row. Interesting to note the lack of concern over non tax payment,twice, until threatened with winding up, of the team I wasn't cheering on at Hampden.......only making a point that inconsistency will be what's quoted at the end of this mess.....

[Mackie]

[censored], then go watch Scottish Football crumble under a domino affect. Sick of hearing people say the Old Firm should go, Scottish Football would be better? Pysh, no outside interest if they did go.
Proof in the pudding is, Hibs and Hearts can't fill each others ground playing a Derby, supposed 3 and 4th biggest clubs in Scotland? The final is the first I've seen an almost full Hampden when one of the other is not playing the Old Firm and even then they struggle to fill there allocation! End of the day, everybody wants to beat the Old Firm (or should) and EVERY club wants the revenue matches against them bring. I'm a strong believer in not biting the hand that feeds you, like it or not, they have collectively hand fed millions to the SFA and the Scottish League over the years. We'd be like the League of Wales without them!

---

What a load of unsubstantiated, scaremongering, load of horse manure you've just shovelled there. I'm sorry but I have to ask, are Jim Traynor or Chic Young, as thats excatly the same 'party line' that they go on about.

You have no way at all to say that we will end up like the Welsh leagues, unless you have somehow perfected the black art of time travel, in which case you have distorted the time line continuum by revealing the future and now we have 2 time lines converging on the same line.....do you know what type of disturbance that causes...WELL DO YOU?

I've seen non-old firm fans claim that there 'home' attendance goes down when one of the ugly sisters descend upon their fair towns with all the unnecessary bigotry, songs and sheer stupidity that they bring with them. So it can be argued that if you remove the old firm, then more fans are willing to go to there home games and also travel away. Add in an increase in competition and we have more interest into the leagues and we could argue that we would be better off.

However to say whether we would be worse off or better off without 1 half (or both) of the Old Firm is all subjective, and as fans we base it on our own prejudices towards the Old Firm. Not even the guys in charge can category claim that A, B and C will happen if X, Y and Z happens, but our game has suffered under the Old Firms dominance (love to see someone argue against that, out of Europe by August, no major finals for our national team since 98) so lets take this chance to implement change now.

I personally want Rangers punished properly and fairly, I don't want to see the SPL bending the rules for them because they are a 'special case' and as such let them get off scot-free. If this means the end of Rangers then let it be. No one cared when it was Gretna it was considered 'just'. No one carried when Livi where dumped to the 3rd, it was considered 'just', and nobody carried when Dundee where given a 25 point deduction, it too was considered 'just'. It's not about getting Rangers booted out of the SPL, it's about holding them accountable to their actions as if it was any other team, no special treatment.

---

BTW I would be worried by the fact that there IS no explaining why Geo got the cash, he got the same amount Souness did yet they tried to emply that it was to do with the Tugay transfer??

He was Head of Youth Development at Rangers at the time, so it was part of his pay such as say Martin Bain, Stefan Klos or any other of the 100+ that where on the EBT at the time (that 111 included Murrays Holding Group by the way)

Souness one is hell of a dodgy, HMRC invistigated it but couldn't find anything concrete on it.

[StrathyStaggie]

Average attendance for this season's League of Wales = 329
Average attendance for this season's SFL Division Three = 425

Out of interest, have you seen any LoW games? I've seen a couple of games on that Welsh free view channel. The Second Division play-off games - which were of a hilariously poor standard - offered a better quality of football.

[Tireseas]

This question has been raised before and to my mind, it's a key one. Picture the scene:

Because of the transfer embargo imposed on Rangers, they have had to field a team of kids all season. It's the last game of the season and Rangers play whoever, the loser being relegated. The Rangers orientated media have been pushing "no Rangers in the SPL, no Scottish football". Rangers lose and face relegation. What happens next?

Do the powers have to find some excuse not to promote the Div 1 Champions? It's been done before.

[StuartTaylor]

How would people if feel if for example Rangers get booted into the 3rd Division, and Dundee are allowed into the SPL, as runners-up in the 1st.
24pts behind us, and also a club who cheated a few seasons ago, buying players they couldnt afford, going into administration, and some would say getting off lightly with the 25pt penalty. They may even have more money than us, buy better players, and relegate us next season.

I would far prefer Dunfermline stayed up!

[cdam]

Hmmm, take home message from some people seems to be that without the "big clubs" scottish football is doomed. In that case, let Celtic play Rangers 36 times and call the winner the champions. They should also both get a bye into the final of both cup competitions. In fact, lets scrap every other team apart from them eh....

Another message, we can do what we want, when we want, to whom we want, and you should be grateful. Whilst I have sympathy for the average rangers fan, they don't deserve this (no, really, they don't) the club have broken just about every rule going (we will probably find that somewhere along the line they even had a girl playing (insert punch-line here).

Break the rules, man up, pay the price, learn the lesson and maybe even come back stronger. By which time it will be the big 3, us , and the 2 from Glasgow...

---

This question has been raised before and to my mind, it's a key one. Picture the scene:

Because of the transfer embargo imposed on Rangers, they have had to field a team of kids all season. It's the last game of the season and Rangers play whoever, the loser being relegated. The Rangers orientated media have been pushing "no Rangers in the SPL, no Scottish football". Rangers lose and face relegation. What happens next?

Do the powers have to find some excuse not to promote the Div 1 Champions? It's been done before.

Of course, that is exactly what they would do. as I say above, just have rangers & Celtic, apparently it is everyone's best interest.