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County vs Ayr 15/12/2018
#41
(12-17-2018, 11:33 PM)the reaper Wrote: Whatever your view on Fyrish's reporting is it is of no relevance. Fyrish gave those of us who cannot make away games his insight as to our team's performance. I do not care what angle he put on it, it is more than you managed. If you disagreed with his view of the ongoings then put your own version on line instead of slagging Fyrish off. I am sure it will be different, in fact it should be. No two of us see the same thing the same way e.g. football matches, road accidents. The old adage works here - there are three versions of a story, his, hers and the truth. I am sure most of us on this forum are of sufficient maturity to realise that Fyrish may have had his rose specs on when watching the game and we read it in that light and appreciate the time and effort to put it on the forum. Thank you Fyrish for your report. Appreciated.

Yes indeed Fyrish well done mate,
IMO were playing better football than any other club and the best in past 5 years
Well done Fergie well
 
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#42
(12-18-2018, 01:51 PM)jm86 Wrote: I think I did point out that a fan’s report is never going to be objective. Virtually impossible.

Likewise, I don’t think anyone is expecting a fan’s report to be 100% unbiased - but I do think it’s fair to hope, particularly for the benefit of those that weren’t there, that it’s going to be a relatively objective description of what happened. I don’t think that was the case here.

Words matter. Madden, or his performance and decision-making, were described as follows: “travesty of justice”, “worst performance … in four decades”, “Christmas gift that kept on giving for the home side”, “total ineptness”, “inexplicably”, “baffling”, “clanger”, “dubious”, “buffoonery”, “appalling”, “sheepish”, “injustice”, “pantomime villain” and “staggeringly incompetent”. I think that would be OTT even if his performance had been at the disastrous end of the scale, but I thought (and still think, having viewed the highlights a few times) that Bobby Madden got most of the decisions that were highlighted right on Saturday.

Interestingly, I haven’t read a single review of the game that even hints at the referee having a horrific day at the office. Nor did our management see fit to mention him in post-match interviews (that I have seen anyway), other than Fergie expressing surprise at being sent to the stand – but we don’t know what was said there, and in any case that was at the instigation of the stand-side assistant and not the referee.

I think this is symptomatic of a wider issue. Programmes like Match of the Day and Sportscene have created a climate amongst football fans where there is a ridiculously high level of scrutiny on the referee and his assistants and how they perform. In every game, all of those taking part tend to make mistakes (if they didn’t, they wouldn’t be playing/managing/coaching/officiating at Championship level), but there is far more focus on the perceived errors of the match officials than on those of the players, management and even the supporters. Yes, there’s been a flurry of high-profile refereeing errors over recent weeks, but I’m guessing there’s been far more mistakes made by players and managers in that time, yet the media aren’t still talking about these. I’d say that officials at Premiership and Championship level get 95% of their decisions right and, when they don’t, they are as frustrated about it as fans – if not more so. I know some of the officials who we regularly have on duty at our games and there’s not a hint of dishonesty or bias in any of them. In fact, very often when we as fans perceive a decision to be wrong, there is a misunderstanding of the laws on our part or we have not seen or heard something that they have (they are, after all, much closer to the incidents) and the decision was in fact sound. So, perhaps the biggest issue is the lack of a forum for officials to explain decisions? Who knows…
 
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#43
yeah but most of us really appreciate Fyrish's True Staggie view, and it probably matches how most Staggies seeing the same game might have felt.

I agree that we shouldn't be nasty about refs or players or managers. Fortunately it's only a game.
FergnKetts - BestBossYets
 
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#44
Ketts has his say on Madden.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/f...1545204100

 
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#45
(12-19-2018, 03:26 PM)StuartTaylor Wrote: Ketts has his say on Madden.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/f...1545204100


... all of which supports the view shared by our Fan Reporter above.
FergnKetts - BestBossYets
 
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#46
Would he have been so vehement in his criticism if it had happened at the other end of the pitch? Just asking.
 
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#47
It's the same way you'll have no outrage on the Ayr penalty despite it being very soft, the second goal for the Shankland shove or the third goal for not being stopped when Watson went down motionless- football fans will always see things through the lens of favouritism towards their side, I don't know what else you expect.

Bobby Madden generally always give us nothing as well.
Quote:God bless the Stag Men and Children.
 
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#48
(12-18-2018, 10:55 PM)MSM Wrote: Likewise, I don’t think anyone is expecting a fan’s report to be 100% unbiased - but I do think it’s fair to hope, particularly for the benefit of those that weren’t there, that it’s going to be a relatively objective description of what happened. I don’t think that was the case here.

Words matter. Madden, or his performance and decision-making, were described as follows: “travesty of justice”, “worst performance … in four decades”, “Christmas gift that kept on giving for the home side”, “total ineptness”, “inexplicably”, “baffling”, “clanger”, “dubious”, “buffoonery”, “appalling”, “sheepish”, “injustice”, “pantomime villain” and “staggeringly incompetent”. I think that would be OTT even if his performance had been at the disastrous end of the scale, but I thought (and still think, having viewed the highlights a few times) that Bobby Madden got most of the decisions that were highlighted right on Saturday.

Interestingly, I haven’t read a single review of the game that even hints at the referee having a horrific day at the office. Nor did our management see fit to mention him in post-match interviews (that I have seen anyway), other than Fergie expressing surprise at being sent to the stand – but we don’t know what was said there, and in any case that was at the instigation of the stand-side assistant and not the referee.

I think this is symptomatic of a wider issue. Programmes like Match of the Day and Sportscene have created a climate amongst football fans where there is a ridiculously high level of scrutiny on the referee and his assistants and how they perform. In every game, all of those taking part tend to make mistakes (if they didn’t, they wouldn’t be playing/managing/coaching/officiating at Championship level), but there is far more focus on the perceived errors of the match officials than on those of the players, management and even the supporters. Yes, there’s been a flurry of high-profile refereeing errors over recent weeks, but I’m guessing there’s been far more mistakes made by players and managers in that time, yet the media aren’t still talking about these. I’d say that officials at Premiership and Championship level get 95% of their decisions right and, when they don’t, they are as frustrated about it as fans – if not more so. I know some of the officials who we regularly have on duty at our games and there’s not a hint of dishonesty or bias in any of them. In fact, very often when we as fans perceive a decision to be wrong, there is a misunderstanding of the laws on our part or we have not seen or heard something that they have (they are, after all, much closer to the incidents) and the decision was in fact sound. So, perhaps the biggest issue is the lack of a forum for officials to explain decisions? Who knows…

MSM, I have just become aware of your comments and those of a random Ayr supporter.

I respect your opinion. However, I stand by the comments about Bobby Madden. That was my take during the game and remains my view now. You appear to be calling me out for exercising freedom of speech.

You have carefully plucked out individual words which formed part of a very lengthy report, without putting these words in the full context in which they were used.

The match report was done for the interest for any in the Ross County support who were not at the game. In the same way that others provide comments about the home games - which are of interest to me when unable to attend. It was not written for anyone in the media nor for Ayr United supporters. I would estimate that around 80% of its content was based on describing the chances for both sides, with the remainder being personal opinion. I have no beef with anyone who takes issue with its content. However, I do not agree with your comments for the following reasons.

Firstly, you were not at the game. Your opinions on the referee are based on having watched a fixed lens view of around 9 of the 94 minutes of game time. Those ‘highlights’ were provided by Ayr which are heavily weighted heavily their favour. My report was written on the basis of having carefully watched the whole game - without having seen any ‘highlights.’ You clearly didn’t see : the different and closer angle that the County support had of all three Ayr goals; any incidents that happened away from play or off the ball; nor the reaction of the County management and the away support to Bobby Madden’s ‘decisions’ during the game, at half-time and at full time.

Having been fortunate enough to have attended approx. 90% of County away games since we joined the Scottish Leagues, I have never seen an away County support so angry at the ‘performance’ of a referee (and in my view justifiably so).

Secondly, just because you apparently didn’t read any reviews that even hint at the referee having “a bad day at the office” doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. Now that we are in the Championship, it is a fact that substantive national match coverage of County games in the Main Stream Media (how ironic) is extremely limited. For example, the BBC provided a match report comprising eight sentences. It was also fundamentally wrong (McKay rather than Cowie cited as second scorer and Shankland rather than Smith missing Ayr’s only chance of the second half although they have since corrected these errors). Given these factors, any BBC - or any alternative limited national coverage that may have been available elsewhere - is clearly not going to go into any depth of analysis about the ‘performance’ of a referee in charge of one of our away games.

Notwithstanding, the fact is that there are reports of Madden’s shocking performance. Stuart Kettlewell has already provided a watered down version of his thoughts on the circumstances that immediately preceded Ayr’s second goal. You refer to Steven Ferguson not making any comments about the referee. Why would he? Even indirect criticism of a referee in Scotland would have resulted in further disciplinary action against him / a heavy fine. Ian Vigurs (who wasn’t even playing received a booking at half-time for making his feelings known to the ref. about his ‘performance’ Steven Ferguson was sent to the stand for same and the other famous Stuart (Taylor!) posted comments about how bad the referee was. I have already mentioned the reaction of the majority of the away support. Were all of these facts made up?

Having posted somewhere between 100 and 200 away match reports over the years (most on the old board) I can assure you that none of these have been influenced by the way in which referees are scrutinised on tv. It appears that that phrase may better suit you (commenting on short, carefully edited match highlights).

I disagree that Scottish referees get about 95% of decisions right. In any view, that figure might apply to the English Premiership, but in Scotland the bar is considerably lower.

Whilst I respect you opinions, I feel that the nature of your comments left me with no option than to put the record straight.
 
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#49
(12-21-2018, 02:57 PM)Fyrish-stag Wrote: You appear to be calling me out for exercising freedom of speech. You have carefully plucked out individual words ... without putting these words in the full context in which they were used.

I have absolutely no issue with freedom of speech and haven't suggested otherwise. My point about the words used was that they struck me as pretty harsh and hyperbolic, regardless of whether the referee's decisions had been wrong or not - but particularly so given that I think Madden was correct in many of the decisions you'd highlighted.

As for not giving the context, I was careful to do exactly that, by saying that these were words that had been used to describe Madden himself or his performance and decision-making.

(12-21-2018, 02:57 PM)Fyrish-stag Wrote: Firstly, you were not at the game.

I would love to know the basis for that statement.

I made it quite clear that my opinions were based on what I thought at the time and hadn't been changed by viewing the highlights a number of times since.

(12-21-2018, 02:57 PM)Fyrish-stag Wrote: Given these factors, any BBC - or any alternative limited national coverage that may have been available elsewhere - is clearly not going to go into any depth of analysis about the ‘performance’ of a referee in charge of one of our away games.

I didn't mention the BBC or any other national media. I was thinking of more in-depth coverage from local media such as the P&J.

And I'm not expecting in-depth analysis of a referee's performance - my point was simply that, as you'd started out by saying Bobby Madden was one of the two big reasons we didn't get the three points we deserved, if he'd objectively had such a big impact his performance might have at least been commented on in coverage of the game.

(12-21-2018, 02:57 PM)Fyrish-stag Wrote: Notwithstanding, the fact is that there are reports of Madden’s shocking performance.

I'll believe you, but I've still not seen a single review of the game in the press or online where the referee's performance was highlighted by the reporter.

Yes, I've seen Ketts' comments (which were published after my initial post), but I think they back up the point I was trying to make in my last paragraph (which was a general comment, not a criticism of your report), about the unfair level of scrutiny on officials. Ketts, who has the ear of the media, makes a throwaway comment about having "bugbears" with "some decisions" and it results in newspaper and online stories with pictures of the referee front and centre, and the referee gets no right of reply (notably, Ketts didn't mention any specific decisions regarding play on the field, other than referring to the head knock one - I suspect that this is because he knows that most of them are not clear-cut). And the irony of the dismissal of Fergie being the decision that has been mentioned most in the media is that that was the linesman's call, not Madden's.

I'm perhaps not making the point very well, but why are the mistakes of officials scrutinised and highlighted in this manner, when those of others who can influence the game aren't? Imagine the shoe was on the other foot and Madden had been able to go to the press (with no right of reply) and comment on Ross County not winning three points due to certain players' missed chances, or if he'd questioned whether we failed to win because our management team had started the game with the wrong tactical approach and only rescued a draw because they'd changed things for the second half. I'm guessing that neither the club or we as fans would think that was fair.

Anyway...

(12-21-2018, 02:57 PM)Fyrish-stag Wrote: Whilst I respect you opinions, I feel that the nature of your comments left me with no option than to put the record straight.

No problem. Thanks for doing so. I hope you don't mind me doing likewise.
 
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#50
(12-21-2018, 04:29 PM)MSM Wrote: ...


I made it quite clear that my opinions were based on what I thought at the time and hadn't been changed by viewing the highlights a number of times since.
...

Yeah but were you actually there at Somerset Park for this match - watching and hearing the 94 minutes of play, decisions and reactions live?
FergnKetts - BestBossYets
 
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#51
(12-16-2018, 11:59 AM)StuartTaylor Wrote: On HT sub Vigurs went on to the pitch to remonstrate with Madden. Didn't see it but someone said he was booked for this? If so then he must be due a ban now and would possibly miss the ICT game (14 days).

Still not sure whether he was booked or not, but he's not on this weeks SFA suspension list so ok for next week (unless he gets a red today).

 
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